Topic: AutoVation (kappasphere/partsforyourcar) Pedals + Optimal heel/toe setup

[kennysabarese]

So I picked up a set of these a while ago and have finally got around to installing and playing with them the last few weeks. The journey for the my optimal racing pedal setup is not yet complete, but I am getting there. So this will be part review and part a discussion about pedal setups. I am very interested in getting some feedback from you guys who have some AutoX and track experience. So click notify on this thread so you can keep up to date.

These are the ones I picked up. They are from AutoVation, the competition series. They look to have the best grip of the collection. Kappasphere and partsforyourcar.com also sell these pedals, they only offer the competition series it seems. Not sure if they get them from AutoVation, or they all get them from another manufacturer. I got these from AutoVation before the other two carried them.



AutoVation seems to be experts with pedals, I've had a lot of discussion with them and they've even sent me parts to help develop the best kit for our cars and haven't charged me for the extra parts or shipping! So I definitely recommend purchasing from them. I don't know if any supporting vendors sell these pedals.

Each set is custom cut for you from AutoVation, so if you want different than standard sizing you can specify exactly what you want and they will do it. There are pattern directions here. http://www.autovation.net/new/pedal_template.htm

Intoduction

These are pedal COVERS not replacement pedals. They give you more grip and a wider gas pedal for better heel toe.

I have an RL which has metal pedals. The covers for the clutch and brake just pull right off. So you can always go right back to stock even after drilling holes for the AV pedals. The gas pedal is a problem. So far no one has been able to find a way to remove the GXP/RL gas pedal cover. Though I just found PFYC.com selling GXP/RL pedals on their site as an upgrade. I just asked them for directions on how to install them, maybe this will show a way to remove the metal cover. I looked around with a light and mirror and the entire assembly looks like a solid integrated piece which is riveted into the post. So I have no idea how to remove it or if you would even want to. If anyone knows more about this please let me know.

Installation Of Clutch and Brake aka the easy part

So just pull off the brake and clutch pedal by hand. Then I put blue painters tape down so I could mark the holes where I wanted to drill. They recommend a 1/8 hole to start then 3/16. Not sure how necessary that is but I just followed their directions. It's tough to drill into the pedal without a tap, so get one, I didn't but luckily there is a little play so I was able to still line everything up.





The kit comes with all the hardware you need and a wrench for the bolts. Then just use a socket on the back side to hold the nut in place. The bolt is the perfect length. DO NOT TIGHTEN TOO MUCH it's not necessary. Just go for a drive and then make sure they are tight and you'll be set. The first time I made mine so tight I could barely loosen them a few weeks later when I went to make adjustments. The second time I didn't make them as tight and they didn't come loose after some aggressive driving, so you don't need to go that tight.

[Ben L]

I have the same setup and love them.  Took a little while to adjust. 

At an SCCA autox school in May, I blew right through a Chicago box turn at the bottom of a hill when I mashed brake and gas really hard.  I felt stupid, until the instructor did the same thing.  Twice.

[DeepBlueGXP]

That's kind of scary, what if that happens on the road in traffic.  BOOM...

[Critterman]

I don't think you do much heel and toe in traffic, at least I don't.

Kenny,
you have to drill out the old pedal and pin the new one in, but these are covers correct not replacement pedals?

[Ben L]

Actually, I do heel and toe on the street a lot, to practice.  On the track it needs to be smooth and reflexive.  Once you are used to the pedal position, its safe enough.

You do have to remove the rubber covers on the brake and clutch and drill the pedals.  Which was surprisingly hard metal. I used a a teeny little new bit and an angle drill, and once I had a pilot hole, used the correct diameter.

The dead pedal and accelerator went into plastic.  Not so hard.

[kennysabarese]

Yes these are covers. You remove the clutch and brake. For the gas you have to drill directly into the pedal for the GXP/RL.

More to come...

[kennysabarese]

I have the same setup and love them.  Took a little while to adjust. 

At an SCCA autox school in May, I blew right through a Chicago box turn at the bottom of a hill when I mashed brake and gas really hard.  I felt stupid, until the instructor did the same thing.  Twice.

There is a fix for this from AutoVation coming. I have been testing it. Trying to get into the city and having major train problems haven't been able to sit down and finish posting

[kennysabarese]

Gas Pedal Installation

The gas pedal install was annoying for a few reasons.

- Pedal curve does not match curve of gas pedal
- Hard to find a spot to drill into because of rubber ridges
- No clue where to actually put the pedal, how high, low, or left or right. Could end up drilling tons of holes.

Since I don't actually use my heel when I heel toe, I use the ball of the foot method, where I just lean my foot over and hit the gas. That is the technique I was taught at Skip Barber race school and I've always preferred that over twisting my foot to reach my heel over.

So I choose to put the pedal as HIGH as possible so the gap between the gas and brake is small.

Here are the results, you can see the stock pedal cover through the holes in the AV pedal



After the install everything seemed great until I had to brake hard to stop at a light. I had put in the clutch and the car stopped but the engine was revving cuz my foot was hitting the gas pedal. If BenL is using the same pedals as me, this is the problem he may be having.

This is when I begun my quest to find the optimal setup!

[kennysabarese]

Optimal Pedal Setup Research

So I spent a lot of time deciding how I was going to address this issue. My first idea was to switch to actual Heel Toe style and move the gas pedal down or make a new pedal molded heel post sticking out like this:



I finally found the right Google phrase that gave me an excellent guide: "optimal heel toe setup"

It got me to this guide which is excellent:

http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/forums/c6-z06-discussion/114421-heel-toe-part-2-spring-mountain-driving-tips.html

Basically they say the optimal setup for ball of the foot style throttle blipping is to have the pedals close together but when you push down all the way on the brake your foot doesn't hit the gas. Then you can just reach the pedal easily.



So I decided I needed to achieve this on my car. The trick is finding out how.

When sitting stationary with the car running, if you push the brake down as hard as you can you pass the plane of the gas pedal by about an inch and a half. The only way I could think to address this was to bend the pedals. Then I thought that since the AV pedal curve does not match the curve of the pedal so it sticks up very high. I thought I could flatten the pedal and it might help. But it still wouldn't give me enough room.

So I emailed AutoVation and Anthony wrote me back explaining that I can bend the pedal to match the curve properly so it doesn't stick up but thought something that was pretty obvious. SPACERS!

If I make the brake "thicker" by adding spacers it won't travel past the gas pedal. So since he said that this was R&D work it would not cost me a thing.

So he sent me 4 spacers that are 1/4 inch thick each and mailed them to me along with longer bolts.



I figured I'd start with all 4. Here's what it looks like with them in place.



I got very worried at first because when I pushed down with the car stationary and engine running I would still hit the gas pedal.

So I went out for a drive with my normal street shoes and found that when you are driving you never push the pedal down as far. It turns out that the spacers actually added TOO MUCH, when I was concerned they wouldn't be enough! So because they are 4 spacers now I can adjust it in a few minutes.

I drove around with 4 spacers and I have found it to be too thick for street driving. I think 2 or 3 will be better. For the track, where you brake much harder, I think 4 will be needed.

I am going to buy some Piloti racing shoes soon and see how that changes things. I'm also going to bend the pedal so it matches the curve of the stock pedal.

Hopefully AV will offer these spacers to existing customers for little to no cost. I'll be talking more with Anthony this week to find out what the plan to do.

[LiquidPT]

Love my Autovation pedals I've put on all our PT Cruisers. They're on my short list for the Sol as well

[kennysabarese]

Next the footrest

That's my next step. When looking at some videos of race drivers footwork, I often noted that on race cars the footrest is about even with the clutch pedal so you can you just move your foot to the right slightly to get to the clutch.

On the Kappa and most passenger cars this isn't the case. The footrest is well beyond the clutch. I really want to use my footrest when racing to brace myself when hitting sharp turns but need to be able to move quickly onto the clutch.

I've noticed that a 2x4 is about the right thickness. So though not graceful, I'm thinking of just screwing one in and putting my AutoVation cover on top of that for grip. If anyone has any ideas let me know.

[Kelu]

Thanks Kenny for this, very well written and documented.

I have this issue when I do burnouts, pedals being too close and the brake pedal being closer to the driver than the gas pedal. The burnout I do it with the arch of the feet on the brake and with the toes on the gas.  

[kennysabarese]

It's supposed to be that way for the rock the foot over technique to blip the throttle. When fully depressed on the brake you do not want to be touching the gas.

For your situation where you want to hit both at the same time, I think a wider gas pedal will do exactly what you need. It will allow you to reach over easier and have more control but keep the ball of your foot on both brake and gas for more control. If you really need the gas pedal closer to you, you could just have spacers for the gas pedal.

Most autoparts stores have pedals you could probably use to make this work very cheaply. Just buy two gas pedals and screw them on and you are set

Or you could just hookup the ebrake to the front wheels

[Kelu]

Or you could just hookup the ebrake to the front wheels

Hahahah, not ebrake but I think a system which engages the front wheel brakes will do the work in my case but I don't want to hijack your great post.

[Critterman]

I actually went from a set of pedal cover to the Stock sports pedals that were not offered in 06. Don't do a whole lot of toe and heel (mostly forget to brake) so for the moment it doesn't effect me.

[kennysabarese]

Allright, here is my next quest. The footrest!

Doesn't sound exciting, but when driving, I have always had a habit to rest my foot on the clutch, no pressure on it of course... The footrest has never been a comfortable position, in any car I've driven.

I've realized that this is because the footrest is further from the driver than the clutch pedal so my feet are not even which feels strange. Also, in order to be able to move my foot between the footrest and clutch pedal as quickly as possible, it would be best to have them even with each other.

If I stick a small piece of 2x4 down there it's the exact right thickness. I would love a more graceful solution if anyone has any ideas or a vendor wants to step up. I've asked autovation if they have any ideas.

[kennysabarese]

The biggest reason to use the footrest, if anyone is wondering is to brace your body, specially if you don't have race seats. Hopefully this will keep me from banging my left knee against the door.

I really like this video of nice clutch/footrest position.

 [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdWSyrqEnE4&feature=related[/youtube]

[kennysabarese]

Ok so I pulled off the footrest. It comes off easy with two plastic nuts. 10mm deep socket required. (will get a proper pic when the rain stops and i take the car out)

Here's what it looks like removed



You can see the back is just like the gas pedal. The plastic is integrated into the main mold, then comes through slots in the metal making it virtually impossible to remove the metal.

 

The AutoVation footrest cover is larger than the stock piece. Not sure how that will work out if you wanted to go right over this part. The AV part doesn't match the curve of the stock part.



This is what I ended up doing as a quick fix to get the block of wood in there. In order to use the AV part it's going to have to be much more involved I think. I also might have them make a smaller part.
 




So far I love it!

[kennysabarese]

Does anyone know if the drift kappas used a custom pedal box such as this?





After my track weekend, I really would love to have a more flexible pedal setup.

[lil goat]

I am sort of in mad dash mode for the meet, but I can ask Ryan or Dmac next week. I am pretty sure on the Sears Sky it is a custom set up AS IT"S ON THE WRONG DAMN SIDE! Crazy Irishman! If I remember right Rhys's peddles were like the one's you show., he used a sequential gear box, it was pretty cool that was new last year.

[kennysabarese]

thanks goat. i figured i could call RMR and Sol Sport but I know you know the cars... i am curious how difficult it is to hookup a pedal box to our cars.

is it the kinda thing you just hookup or does it require custom fabrication

[kennysabarese]

Update on my pedal setup.

1) After putting in the Kirkey racing seats which lower me many inches, my legs reach further into the footwell so I didn't really need the dead pedal extender to be so fat. So I took the 2x4 our and it's more comfortable.

2) My optimal seating position in terms of how far back the seat is makes it hard for me to get the clutch all the way to the floor without really stretching. I would just move closer, but then my right foot is too close to the brake and gas and it's uncomfortable. So I tried moving the spacers I have on the brake to the clutch pedal and it worked.  But now I need more spacers so I can have them on both brake and clutch pedal. I have emailed autovation and they haven't wrote back in a while. Going to call them this week. I really want an aftermarket pedal setup. 

3) Oh also I'd like an adjustable steering wheel! My optimal foot position puts me too far from the damn steering wheel    Anyone know if there is anything to do about this?

[Treeman]

Reading through this post in more detail and through the Autovation web site, I am thinking more about this.  Looks like I would have to get the competition ones - I had eyeballed the grid pattern at first but since you have to bend the gas pedal, it looks like their extra thickness might make that hard to do.  Or, I could just install the clutch and brake and leave the stock gas pedal.  The stock spacing is OK for heel and toeing for me.  I worry about making them too close as you pointed out.  It was pedals that were too close that they figured out was behind the Audi "unintended acceleration" issues in the late 80s.  Have to take some care on that.  But all this is definitely interesting...

[LiquidPT]

Reading through this post in more detail and through the Autovation web site, I am thinking more about this.  Looks like I would have to get the competition ones - I had eyeballed the grid pattern at first but since you have to bend the gas pedal, it looks like their extra thickness might make that hard to do.  Or, I could just install the clutch and brake and leave the stock gas pedal.  The stock spacing is OK for heel and toeing for me.  I worry about making them too close as you pointed out.  It was pedals that were too close that they figured out was behind the Audi "unintended acceleration" issues in the late 80s.  Have to take some care on that.  But all this is definitely interesting...

The gas comes bent. Now, I had to bent the dead pedal a little to make it fit...

I love these pedals. Have em on every car in my driveway. Absolutely worth $100 to me to never have my foot slip.

[Treeman]

Do you have the competition or the grid?